speaker-0 (00:34)
I'm here with Dr. Jake. He's with Flex Forward Physical Therapy. We get to know a little bit more about him today. So just real quick, Dr. Jake, I mean, who are you outside of Therapy.

speaker-1 (00:49)
Who am I outside of physical therapy? Man, that's that's a loaded question. I mean, I'm kind of like an outdoor enthusiast. I am a dog dad. have a what is he now? Five year old poodle poodle mix ball of energy. That takes a lot of work. Yeah, I have a fiancee, Maria. Hope you be married soon, but.

yeah, I mean, I'm just kind of like one of these guys that I grew up like from a small town in Wisconsin. So, go Packers. but, through that whole process, you know, like I was a kind of a tri-sport athlete kind of thing and played soccer, played basketball and track. So I was always like really interested in sports.

speaker-0 (01:25)
Did you a favorite out of the three of them? Soccer for Soccer for sure. Okay.

speaker-1 (01:27)
Yeah,

so like when I like basically my basketball season and my track seasons were always just like training for me to do soccer and so it got to the point where you know I remember like there were times where I would go to like a track meet and my travel team for soccer was like practicing right next door and so I like would run all my races you know and they had me do like four different three or four events or whatever and then be like coach can I

Can I go? And then I go play soccer, you know?

was my thing and then so yeah and then like I went like all state all conference and all that stuff so it was like really super competitive with it and I didn't really pick it up until like this year again so like I when I was doing all my traveling and stuff as a travel PT I didn't you know like you couldn't really join a league because you're moving around so much so yeah so lately I've just been kind of like

Really getting into soccer again, playing, I guess I play the guitar, or some learning. What else about me? yeah, but otherwise like mountain biking, running, rock climbing, all those adventure sports, paddle boarding in the summer. So those are all things that I really like.

speaker-0 (02:43)
Physical activity is like a huge part of who you are. You have physical activity, you got your fiance, and then obviously there's some Benzoni in there. So are a lot of physical therapists kind of like you where they were really physical active you feel like when they were young and then they became like they wanted something to do inside of this field where they still have?

speaker-1 (03:03)
That's a good question. I I think it goes half and half because like, you know, like some people I know they just like really like the sciences and they really liked biology and like, you know, that sort of thing. And a lot of us, you know, funnily, we wanted a career that was in like the medical field, but we didn't want to like stick people in needles. And I'm one of those people actually. So, you know, like, and then my story is like,

That is exactly me. did not want to be a nurse. didn't want to stick needles in people or like draw blood or anything. I'm not afraid of it, but I just didn't want to do it. I think doing it to somebody else like scared me.

speaker-0 (03:43)
Plunging

speaker-1 (03:44)
Yeah, exactly. So I mean, like, I think for me, like, and I know a lot of us too, like we get hurt, like you play sports, I got hurt all the time. So like, I mean, there was never, I don't think there was a season where I didn't have something like in high school where I was hurt. Concussion, like I was out for half the season. One time I stress fractured my foot, probably from doing too much.

speaker-0 (04:00)
Was there a major injury that ever...

speaker-1 (04:09)
And then I was out for like the whole basketball season and half of my soccer season and the multiple ankle stuff, you know, so it was always something.

speaker-0 (04:18)
I feel like that's kind of why it led you down to the fixing career. Like the therapy is like, you guys fix a lot of these.

speaker-1 (04:23)
lot. Yeah.

So I mean, like for me, I went into it because like, I remember like hurting my ankle, especially like the stress fracture in the torn, you know, tendons in my ankle when I tore them in my left foot, you know, like I was in therapy and like I had a therapist that was like, she was actually like an athletic training kind of major too. And she used to work for a professional sports team. And so she was doing like

like high level rehab with me that you would see like on these sports teams and stuff. I'm like, dang, this is cool. Like I can do this. Like I can train. You know, it was like, I was like having fun, like being, even though I was hurt, I was kind of like training and like able to like kind of get back into like sports and stuff, which I was really passionate about. I'm like, that's cool. Like I can do that for somebody. Like, like be involved in them getting back to sports. Cause at that time, like that's.

It was wrecking me. There was a time where I was on crutches for six months in a walking boot, because of that stress fracture. So getting back to doing what I wanted to do was game changer.

speaker-0 (05:29)
When it keeps you like active in the sports too, because you know what the athlete needs to be able to do right on the field or on the court. So you're like, I can't just be like, well, I'm going to just train you in the, know, I'm going actually get you back to able to do what you need to do in your sports that you can excel again. For sure. Right. know, that's kind of cool. You experienced it firsthand and you think that her

like knowledge or her ability in there kind of spurred you forward. If it had been someone else and they ever done it like last day is called maybe a lot of hindered.

speaker-1 (06:02)
I think along my career there has been some physical therapists that have really just changed my trajectory and made this whole thing jump forward.

Yeah, there has been like, throughout my trajectory, there has been physical therapists that have really just propelled like my life and then just like my career forward. So like that lady getting me back to like, you know, the sport at that time, that was like what jumpstarted me to get into it. But then like, I had a lady that I was my mentor in college, because we had to do these like internships, basically four of them in all these different settings and stuff.

And at one time, had, this was my first internship, or clinical internship. And right before I went, my roommate at the time decided he was gonna sneak, he liked to wrestle me. I have a background in martial arts, I'm a black belt, second degree, and he was like a Brazilian jujitsu guy. So like, would just kinda like, every once in a while, like, he would show me how to do like a choke hold or something, whatever.

So like one day I'm getting back, walking back from school and I had the backpack on and he was like standing behind the corner of the wall and I didn't see him. And I walked into the living room and he came up and he like came and like, you know, grabbed me and then like threw me back. But I hit my hat on the ground and ever since that, like all throughout college after that for like probably like two years, I had like neck pain an entire time. And actually like I lost function of my left hand.

My hand went completely dead. It was numb, tingling. I couldn't move it. And at the time I was really rock climbing and I couldn't grab holds because I couldn't function my hand. So here I am on my first clinical now, like ever rotation. I couldn't use my hand. And like every single time we had like a lunch break or something that clinical instructor, Megan, she like would show, she would work on me or she'd show me what to do. And like that.

allowed me to get function in my handbag. So that's what actually led me to doing what I'm doing now because I wanted to do that for somebody else. Because there's this whole thing in physical therapy where we have to, when someone comes in, it's our job to look at if there's any red flags or yellow flags, meaning do I refer this out to somebody else?

Or that would be a red flag like, hey, this is out of my scope. You gotta go see a neurologist or you gotta go get an x-ray or you gotta go, you know, whatever. Yellow flags is like, yeah, there might be something going on here. I can proceed, but I gotta proceed with caution, you know, kind of thing. So I think in the standard rule of physical therapy, when there's like issues with nerves going on, a lot of times people will just...

refer out right away. And it's good to have them on your side. I'm not saying like you do want to be in conjunction with the neurologist to know what's going on in a perfect world. But you know, like this was a case where my arm went dead and like we have more skills than people think. Cause a lot of people think we just do exercise. We can like correct your form and stuff. We're just like a high level personal trainer. But in reality, like we have extensive, you know, knowledge base.

of the nervous system and musculoskeletal system and everything so we can help people in those situations where it might not seem like a physical therapist from the layman's eye could do anything. And so my mission there was to kind of try to really evaluate someone from a full perspective so that you can, you might not eliminate everything, but you can kind of pick away some things to.

speaker-0 (09:37)
That sounds a lot more than just saying, someone's hamstring is not firing. Just going to get it firing, then you guys are good to go. It's actually much more in depth than that. Yeah.

speaker-1 (09:46)
Yeah, you know, and then there's another mentor just going on that rant, know, he, John Hartemberger, he was like the guy, he was the back like guru, I want to say, I hate saying guru, but.

speaker-0 (10:02)
The master. The shall I?

speaker-1 (10:03)
But he was crazy, cool guy, like amazing personality. He would listen to everybody, the fullest. he would, people would come in and he was actually a pastor. So he had a history of being a PT and then he went to be a pastor for a while and then he went back to be a PT. And when he went back the second time, he like took all these courses. So he knew he was, you know, giving the best, cause he was been out of it for like 20 years. So he went back and took all these courses. So he knew what he was doing.

And all of the skills that he ended up using in the clinic, you know, and again, he was one of my mentors. That's what I was like, that's what physical therapy has to be like for everybody else. So that's like what ends up at the end of the day, setting me apart from a lot of other clinics. Why people seek me out, I guess, is because other clinics, you're just another number.

You're just getting cookie cutter exercises, stuff like that. But what John would do, he would use his pastor skill set. He would just sit in the room and just be like, tell me what's going on. People would be crying. They would be telling him about their whole life counseling. He would just sit there and he would just fold over and he's just listening, you barely say anything. And then they would tell him the whole story and basically then they tell him what's wrong.

speaker-0 (11:12)
counseling.

speaker-1 (11:24)
And that's what I've noticed is that like oftentimes the person knows what's wrong and they'll tell you, then you just listen. And then, you know, then you use your skillset that he developed, which was osteopathic manual therapy, like hands-on skills to like help people. And that's exactly what I do now. I listen and then like a lot of times I'll combine like the exercise stuff, but there's like a mix of chiropractic in there, like the osteopathic methods, like.

you the adjustments and stuff or, you know, legally I can't say that grade five spinal manipulation would be what I would say legally, but, you know, and then body work and then exercise. And then again, just like all the other lifestyle stuff, know, listening to them, how's your sleep going? How's your nutrition? How's all that in order to get somebody better?

speaker-0 (12:13)
Instead of just scraping this

speaker-1 (12:15)
surface,

but we're like going deep.

speaker-0 (12:18)
That's awesome. So John really helped you with that. And obviously Megan, the way she helped you fix your arm. Yeah. Do you even touch with any of these?

speaker-1 (12:25)
I haven't talked to John in a while, honestly. Megan I have. Megan I've connected with like almost every year. She's kind of, you know, we've stayed in touch through social media and everything. And weirdly enough, she has a black, a giant black schnauzer. And that looks exactly like my dog, except my dog is a black poodle. But like when his hair grows out, they look very similar. gets a lot of people think he's the schnauzer. So she will like.

you know, like a message back and forth and stuff like that, like her and I. ⁓ So she's actually, she was in Utah. So my first clinical rotation was in Utah. I lived there with my aunt and uncle out there. So they live out there in, or they used to live in Magna, but now they live in Salt Lake City. And so I was out there for like about a month when I did that rotation for the first one with Megan.

speaker-0 (12:57)
you

okay.

speaker-1 (13:20)
And I don't know why this just jumped in my head, but I just remembered my final day, my last day on that job, like we took a, we wanted to take a picture together and she found a stray cat outside the clinic. So we took a picture with this stray cat. That was just really random thought I just had.

speaker-0 (13:37)
would have imagined that you guys had to do clinics like just I mean I'm basically just anywhere in the United States, you know, it's yeah

speaker-1 (13:43)
So basically like what they'll do is they you know, they have to place students, you know, and the Carol Carol College or Carol University where I went had 80 kids like per cohort So like they had to place 80 kids each year or each, you know semester or whatever So like sometimes it got tough if you're trying to like just do everybody around the area So like if they knew someone had family somewhere else

Like, I don't know how they knew this about me, but they knew I had an aunt and uncle out there. And so they were like, all right, you're going out there.

speaker-0 (14:13)
some

research.

speaker-1 (14:13)
But I mean, it was really fun. It was a great experience. I love it out there. Again, the whole outdoor adventure side of me, like I absolutely loved it. And then there was a friend of mine that was from a different cohort. He weirdly enough had an aunt and uncle that also was out there and his aunt and uncle lived like 15 minutes from my aunt and uncle. So like every weekend we'd go out and hike in the mountains. We went to the hot springs and stuff. I mean, it was absolutely fantastic. I loved it.

speaker-0 (14:41)
time. Yeah. So then for you, do you want people who are athletes physically active like you? Is that your ideal person or do you want like the gen pop? Yeah.

speaker-1 (14:50)
I mean, my ideal client, yeah, is like somebody that's active, somebody that wants to get back to their lifestyle, know, kind of like what I went through, right? Like either the youth athlete that wants to get back to their sport, because that's their life, that's their love, or just somebody that's like, you know, weekend warrior, triathlete, runner, you know, or they just want to do the occasional obstacle course race or, you know, whatever it is.

just stay healthy, those people that really care about their health. They don't have to be active, but they care about your health.

speaker-0 (15:20)
I mean

You've helped countless clients of the gym here, even helped fix my shoulder and then my wife's back with all of her stuff that goes on there. Like, has there ever been someone though that's been like, person, maybe they didn't think they would be this way, but they were so gratifying when you fixed them. You're like, wow, like they came in, I didn't know if I could do it. But like that person, did you have an experience like that?

speaker-1 (15:47)
That's a good question. I mean, there's definitely some people that come in and you're like, man, for whatever reason, don't know if we're gonna get all the way. I never wanna not be confident at all, right? So I guess if I'm not confident at all, that would be, in my field, a scenario where I would prefer out. But like,

There is one that comes to mind. just like, have so honestly, like I feel like everybody that comes in, I feel like that. I get excited about everybody because they're always have like something, right? It's like you start with something, like somebody comes in and you know, like I'll get on the topic of the one that I'm thinking of, but like, you know, I got right now, I have somebody that I'm working with with their knee. They had like a revision done on their knee. They had knee surgery done before. The first one, so she had both knees done.

The first one that she had done, she had done with me, she really liked the result. The one that she did with somebody else, it didn't turn out. She didn't get all the knee bending she wanted. And then she called me up recently and was like, Jake, I don't care what it costs. She ended up being able to go through the insurance, but she's like, I don't care what it costs, I need to come see you because you came and you worked with me for the first one and it turned out perfect.

The second one, I had to go back for a surgery and get like a revision. And then get it better. So like in her head, she comes in and she's just like, I need my knee range of motion to be better. So like her goal is that. And so like we're working on that. I'm excited like, all right, each time, we're gonna hit this goal. But then like now it's like we've got new goals. So I'm getting excited about her like, all right, well, we're gonna get you back to sitting on the floor, because that was your.

your end goal, like farther or a long goal, like get back to yoga, do other fitness stuff. So it like evolves over time. So I feel like every single client, there's always something where it's like, yeah, maybe like this is gonna be hard, but like then it just starts snowballing and you get excited about.

speaker-0 (17:46)
And they start to notice they're getting their life back in a sense of like being able to do the things they actually enjoy. And they're like, this is why I do it. Do you ever keep track of how many surgeries you probably have kept away from people? Oh, that would be a tally wouldn't it? Someone walks in, well they said I need surgery. And you're like, after 10 sessions you're like, no surgery needed.

speaker-1 (17:53)
No. ⁓

no.

That's a hard one.

No, I know, crazy. Yeah, and I mean, like I just took pride in getting people faster results. Like, so generally like a regular standard clinic, you know, it's going to take you like 12 to 14 visits, sometimes even more to just get like a baseline stronger or like just get like back to like a little bit, like get take the edge off the pain and maybe start getting active again. But I take pride in trying to like.

you know, no guarantees, but gets you better in 10 visits or less. Like that's in my mind. Like how can I get this guy back to doing what they want to do in 10 visits or less, fast as possible? And like, not just again, going through the motions and getting somebody, you know, back to the baseline, but let's, let's go.

speaker-0 (18:51)
Don't just slap a bandaid on it. Fix the actual problem.

speaker-1 (18:55)
And then I had one other thing that I just wanted to say, there is, so thinking about this client that I was like, this isn't going to work. She was a, she was a 16 year old girl in a wheelchair and they called me up and they said like that, you know, they went through Shirley Ryan, like the neuro ability lab and everything. And like, she did all this therapy, like six months of therapy, all this stuff to try to get her walking again.

And cause she's in a wheelchair and she had a, you know, she was paralyzed basically from kind of like mid thoracic region down. so T10, you know, down. And, you know, they tried all this therapy and it like, wasn't really working. And then she came into me and they were like, Hey, can you help her walk again? Can you help her do stairs? And I, you know, like,

At my office, I like raised and lowered the table so that she could try to stand. And it was pretty scary, honestly, because the first time we tried and I was like, my gosh, I don't know if this is going to work. You know? And again, this is one of those where, you know, normally would you refer out? But like she's tried all this other stuff. And I'm like, maybe we can try something different than what she did at Shirley Ryan. And Shirley Ryan is like a research.

lab-based, PT, I mean, this clinic should be the highest of the high, right? So I was like, okay, well, let's see. So long story short, within two visits, she was walking, she was doing stairs, she was doing all this stuff. I mean, it was unbelievable. I just couldn't imagine it. So like we just did, I have a background in like neuro. I've always been fascinated with like neuro, like even when we were in school.

in school, I debated like, I'm gonna do a residency in neuro, like a neuro residency, but I never did it. But yeah, like we just did some like basic neuro techniques on her and like I was able to increase her strength and like she was able to do all this. I mean, she had to use braces, but she was able to do all this stuff that she couldn't do after six months of PT and she literally did it in one session. It was just like unbelievable.

And you know it kind of just shows you like what people are capable of and like it just honestly felt like like a miracle it was like wow this has been here the whole time like are people not like doing the right thing or and that's why you're not getting results or like you know did I just do it differently or you know I don't know but

speaker-0 (21:23)
skipping a step somewhere. then the part taking out to like those Brazilian steak houses after that. They're being like, my gosh, thank you, Jack. Thank you, Jack, so much.

speaker-1 (21:32)
I know, and then again it came from we're just going to try this to let's just keep doing it to get stronger and then move on to the next goal and the next goal.

speaker-0 (21:42)
So then how are you different from these other places that would do it? What's your main? This is how I do it. This is my differentiator.

speaker-1 (21:50)
Yeah, I think at the end of the day, the basic explanation is we focus on quality, not quantity. At the end of the day, our business model is focused on giving somebody the best experience that they possibly can, which will then evolve into all this other stuff. But the other clinics, they're all about how many people can you get in the door as fast as you can, which ends up being a factory.

So they oftentimes will use like low cost techs or aids, people with no experience or people with two years of experience, just to save some money so that they can basically have their, you know, their doctor physical therapy, see somebody for 15 minutes, and then spend the rest of the time with somebody with like basically no education so that they can just keep cycling the PT. So like the person will stay with.

the person with no experience and then the PT will just hop between all the other visits to get as much money as they possibly can. So it's a factory. And they're operating as a factory, I'm trying to operate it as like, know, maybe not something that would make as much money as something like that, but on my conscious, I value helping people and that's where my differentiator is, you know.

at the core of it all where I'm here to help people and that's what the business is versus making a buck.

speaker-0 (23:15)
Yeah, I remember coming to you and doing like the total body diagnostic even. And I was like, this hurts. And you're like, okay, cool. We're going to get to that, but we're going to do, I want to look at the whole picture here. Right. And then like, I was like, oh my gosh, I didn't even realize this was an issue. And you're like, Nate, this is an issue as well. And then like, this is what's causing the pain. And I was going through all of that. I was like, okay, that's an eye opening experience for me. never experienced that in any PT session ever. Right. And I've had my share of

like knee injuries and things as well. They just refer you out to like the doctors like here, just go to this local doctor PT and then it doesn't ever get better.

speaker-1 (23:52)
mean,

you could talk for hours and hours and hours about how our healthcare system is broken. But essentially other ways we're different is that, you know, I started off with the mindset of a cash clinician. So like that does allow me to see the entire body as a whole. And the reason for that is like, you know, most people that don't know about all the rules of physical therapy or medical, there's just so many rules. Like you can do this, but you can't do that. And you can call this, you can't.

At the end of the day, the normal system is everybody takes all the insurances and they, you know, and when, but when you take insurances, then what happens is you are basically, you know, given a referral from a physician and then you're stuck to that body part. In order to build that through your insurance, you got to stick with, if you came in with a shoulder diagnosis, I'm working on your shoulder.

versus if you're a cash person and you're not going through the insurance or you're going out of network with insurance, then you can kind of treat it more like body work, where it's like, I can work on whatever is going on at that time. We can kind of move around and work on the neck this time or work on the shoulder and it really allows for high performance BT. So it's really perfect for those that like.

maybe aren't as bad as like, you know, needing your insurance, but it's great for those that like want to stay on the bike or want to keep running or want to stay in the gym or want to keep coaching or whatever it is. Like they're still able to function, but they want like to feel better. you know, cause again, there's this whole rule about with insurance, you need to be medically necessary in order to build the insurance. So.

Sometimes if someone just says I have an achor pain, you know, is that medically necessary? Then they technically can't go through insurance.

speaker-0 (25:39)
So the average person I assume then just thinks of you as an average. What's the difference? He's PT, right? Jake's PT. He's a physical therapist. What are they misunderstanding from you as a physical therapist? And then what is the misunderstanding about running a business as a physical therapist? What do people misunderstand about you?

speaker-1 (25:59)
I think the first misunderstanding is just like people will lump you in with every other physical therapist or every other chiropractor, meaning, you know, A, it's too expensive. It's, you know, not going to do anything. It's just exercise only. You know, it only works when you're there. A will go away. A will come back when you stop. You know, so those are usually the barriers of what people like

speaker-0 (26:20)
Right.

speaker-1 (26:27)
when they think of physical therapy, like, I don't need to do that. Like, it doesn't work for me. Or I've done it in the past and I've had this pretty crappy experience. It's gonna be the exact same, know, cause all of these other places are kind of doing the exact same thing. You know? And so they expect this high volume clinic where you're just pumping out numbers and you really don't see somebody. And then what was your father's

speaker-0 (26:52)
So like the misunderstanding to like, you're actually running a business like this. What's the misunderstanding that people probably have of running a business as a physical therapist?

speaker-1 (27:00)
mean,

like people probably think they're making huge bucks and you're just rolling in it because you're a doctor.

Yeah, but that's not true. Not true at all. I mean, I don't know. I'm not really sure what people think about like running a PT clinic, you know, what they think about it. think but I mean, like that's that's where my head goes is people probably just to simulate you with, you know, maybe you're making a lot of money. Maybe this person has an ego. I don't know. But I personally don't feel like that, but I'm 100 percent biased.

speaker-0 (27:37)
It's tough because you're balancing business owning with physical therapy, Because you're making a lot of those business decisions. You're seeing a CPA, right? You're talking about your accounting. There's the potential for salaries, things. There's overhead costs, there's expenses. There's the day-to-day activities that have to be taken care of as well. And that's all fine and dandy. You're not just some employee at a clinic. I have to focus 100 % on you while also...

making sure this business is profitable.

speaker-1 (28:07)
I guess,

yeah, they don't understand that, like, the whole scope of it. And even sometimes it's like, you know, we do like more over-the-top exercise programs for people, like actual programming, like you do this exercise, like we'll write either fitness programs or rehab programs for people, which is completely different than where you go somewhere else, because somewhere else you'll just get a sheet of exercises on a, like, printout.

speaker-0 (28:30)
I'll print out.

speaker-1 (28:32)
versus like this one's like legit programming that we keep up to date and we like, you know, modify it as you go along and everything. can like comment or connect with people, like message them and figure out what we need to change. And all the videos are like custom for that person or they're like made, filmed of me usually like doing something. And it takes a lot of work. And I think like some people are like, well, you know, why didn't you get that to me?

Like in an hour, it's like, cause I'm doing everything else. You know, I think that's the misunderstanding too is they don't understand what you're all doing.

speaker-0 (29:06)
How many PTs do you think out of 10 like yourself or hands on?

speaker-1 (29:11)
Mmm.

speaker-0 (29:13)
Was it even one out of ten you say?

speaker-1 (29:15)
It depends on what you mean.

speaker-0 (29:17)
Like so like when your hands on like you're doing the tissue. Yeah, you're doing that stuff

speaker-1 (29:20)
Cause I think there's like, I actually watched a video about this yesterday. There's like all of these like camps that PTs will go into. So there's like a camp where it's like, and this camp is very popular with people that are going to school, like new grads. And it's like, the research shows that manual therapy is not effective basically. So like the only thing based on research or evidence-based is that

you should do exercise to get better. You shouldn't do hands-on work. Or if you do, you have to do it in combination. So there's like people that were like, they literally don't do any manual therapy because they just do exercise because evidence shows that it is better that way. But then there's people that maybe do do hands-on manual therapy or whatever, but I think this question is loaded and it shouldn't be.

At least for me, you know, at least for me it's loaded because you'll go to like other clinics and maybe like they're just like literally just doing like a massage. Like they're literally just doing like basic, basic massage techniques, like no special skills there. It's literally just like, it hurts in your knee. I'm just going to rub your knee, you know, and you just get a knee rub. You just get a knee rub for five minutes, you know. Whereas like you could be really skilled about it.

And then there's people that will literally do body work. They use cupping, scraping, use maybe trigger point release, active ART, active release technique, PNF. So I'm doing all these other techniques versus just rubbing.

speaker-0 (30:49)
actual skill versus just touching pointlessly.

speaker-1 (30:52)
There's a lot of PTs, you know, like so out of your zero to 10 number, I mean, like probably like eight or nine out of 10 are doing hands-on work. However, they're not like doing it at the same skill level. Maybe they don't have the same intuition or they're not doing it like in the concept of like where I do it more as like body work. So like that's why I do the whole cash thing sometimes if it's applicable to that client because I'm able to kind of like

do only that and not like...

speaker-0 (31:26)
It like dirties up what you're doing, right? Because you're like, do body work. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the last place. Like, no. No, you didn't. It's like, they touched you. They didn't do what I'm gonna get made of therapy. They're not actually what I'm going to do, right? So it's like dirty enough, kind like what it is you do. Cause like they're saying, oh yeah, I did that there. And you're like, no, you didn't actually do. Like once actually with me and you'll see why I'm different. Yeah. Right. So that's cool. 100%. So like, let's just transfer a little bit into like more like the business-only aspects, supposed from the physical therapy. So.

How has owning a business changed you over the course of your life, especially as a man?

speaker-1 (32:00)
Mmm.

How did owning my business change me over time, especially as a man? I think...

Hmm. I mean, for one, you have a greater understanding of all of the other people that own businesses, especially private businesses. You just like, I have a great respect for everybody that like does that. And you know, like I grew up like marketing, like a little bit, like just getting to know, like as I was a PT, I was just kind of like working with some of the clinics that I was like shadowing at and stuff, but I guess I didn't realize like the whole, how much networking there really is.

And I think it's really cool because you really get to know a lot of these people. And so I think it changed me in the way of I was more of an introverted person. You don't see that with me. But I'm very introverted. I like to do stuff on my own. For the most part, a lot of the sports I do and stuff are generally on my own, like mountain biking, rock climbing, a lot of alone sports. But I...

speaker-0 (32:39)
Okay.

speaker-1 (32:56)
I think through owning a business and having to get out there and market and talk to people and having conversations with people and getting to know them, it started to get me to be a little more extroverted.

speaker-0 (33:07)
forced out of that comfort zone a little bit. Yeah, for sure. Moved you forward.

speaker-1 (33:10)
100%.

100%. Yeah, and you know, we didn't even talk about why I am in business. So I talked about like wanting to make a change, wanting to like help people, wanting to make physical therapy better. But the whole reason this all started, honestly, like to get down to the, you know, the whole thing is PT school is expensive and I didn't have any help from my parents and...

Honestly, there were some money decisions made along the way that I went to my parents for advice on some of this stuff. And maybe I didn't get the best advice. And so we took out a lot of loans and things, you know, ended up walking out of school with a lot of money in debt. A lot. Double of what you make and then some.

speaker-0 (33:57)
Did you know going into school you're going to be a physical therapist or did you have to change?

speaker-1 (34:01)
So I knew going into school I was gonna be a physical therapist. When I was going to look things up, you go through, I don't know, if it's like, not a better business group, but you can look up the statistics and it's like, oh, they're gonna make, you're gonna make 150,000 a year, blah, blah, working for Right out of school. Right out of school. But then in 2020 and everything, and like I said, there's all this stuff going on with our healthcare system and how it's bad, but.

speaker-0 (34:21)
Cool man.

speaker-1 (34:31)
Basically what happened is the governing board for the physical therapy association didn't really stand up for us, like physical therapists, and so then they started losing reimbursement for insurance. So then these people that were generally, like with a four year degree, making 100 grand plus easy in like an outpatient clinic, now you're looking at 60 grand. So.

Like people are going to school not for four, but now people are going to school for a doctorate. They're thinking like, I'm gonna be a doctor of physical therapy. Everything's gonna be great. But then you don't realize that you're actually gonna make 60 grand, 60 to 70 grand getting out of school with seven years of schooling. So it like doesn't add up at all. There's like the, you know, the amount of what you're getting out of it is not what you're putting in. So anyway, my loan payment like,

graduating school was very high. And there was a lot of times where it's like, shit, I can't really pay the bills, you know? And so I had to try to make things work. I did travel physical therapy for a while. I did home health for a while, all because those are like higher paying careers for physical therapists. But none of them ever fulfilled me. Travel was cool because you are traveling around, but it's just hard. It's hard living out of your car.

And if you want to have kids and a life, just can't do it. And then home health, it's good paying, the flexibility of it is good, but you're just always dealing with people that don't want to make a change. They don't want to live a better life. They're in pain and they're just kind of, unfortunately, kind of complaining about it a lot. And you're just doing the same old thing all the time and everything was just too basic for me. So then I was like,

I need to make basically, I was struggling to pay the bills and it's like, I have to do something where I can pay the bills. so I can work with my ideal client. So then it was like, okay, well, I'm to take all these business courses and get a mentor and get somebody that is also doing this and join like a mentorship group. And I just had to make it work. Just had to make it work. And so I was willing to hustle and bustle.

speaker-0 (36:23)
work with their ideal client, probably too.

speaker-1 (36:40)
So how did it change my life? For the better, it brought me out of my shell and it got me to learn how to work hard and you can kind of be an entrepreneur and get what you want, but you gotta kind of work for it. Anything's possible, but you just gotta put in the work and get uncomfortable.

speaker-0 (36:57)
Skating by is the best way to fail, right? Yeah.

speaker-1 (37:00)
Yeah,

so, but then I think like, you know, also too now, like now that I'm like a year and some change in business, I think it's realizing like that, if you really want things to grow, like you gotta have a team. You know, like I had my biggest growth when as soon as I started bringing on like a virtual assistant, because I was just doing everything.

doing absolutely everything. was wrecking myself. wasn't sleeping, wasn't eating. And this is coming from a guy that like, you asked me, what do like to do? That's my idea. And so I wasn't sleeping, wasn't eating. Like honestly, right now this is probably the most out of shape I've been. Which is hard for me. Cause I've had like a six pack since like nine years old.

speaker-0 (37:31)
Anyway

Born with it came out of your bar to it fix it Made you a laundry really easy

speaker-1 (37:48)
But, you know, so, but like, just realizing that like you've got to share the load and, you know, you gotta share the load so you can be there for your family too.

speaker-0 (37:58)
Well speaking of family, how do you show up at home while also being a business owner?

speaker-1 (38:03)
It's hard, yeah. So I mean like, you know, that's why delegation is huge and like having a team and so you can be present at home because like for the last, you year when I was kind of hustling, bustling, trying to get this to work, a lot of stuff got sacrificed. And you know, was hard on relationships that, know, hard on my relationship with Maria, you know, is just in general, it just kind of, you start taking shortcuts and then.

The patterns just keep adding up and then you just keep doing that because now it's a habit to do that stuff.

speaker-0 (38:39)
Has there been a pro to the life side from owning the business though?

speaker-1 (38:43)
Yeah, I mean, I would say so. Yeah, I mean, I'm giving you a lot of negatives. Yeah, no, think flexibility is huge. So like, you know, the ability to just kind of manage my own schedule and and whether it's handling stuff for Maria or handling handling stuff for like our pets and different things or even my life, like just having greater flexibility and not always just

speaker-0 (38:48)
Hahaha

speaker-1 (39:13)
For me, not doing one thing. Because I got really bored doing one

speaker-0 (39:18)
Do you like wearing all the hats? Or do you prefer the therapy hat, you think?

speaker-1 (39:20)
Hmm

Hmm, I think I like having a lot of hats, but then like there's a lot of times where it's Uncontrolled right so then like I don't like it when it's uncontrolled and you're just like my gosh. How do I get?

speaker-0 (39:36)
right now yeah it's a big giant fire right and you have to put it out one

speaker-1 (39:40)
Yeah,

you know, but yeah, I like doing a lot of different things and dabbling in it, you know, learning from marketing to selling to, you know, and then having the skill set of PT, like there's just so many aspects to it. And I think that's what kind of got me excited with owning a business is like you're learning your skills in so many different ways, like aspects.

speaker-0 (40:04)
It's exciting to learn all these things new. What would you say was the hardest thing to overcome when you started your own business?

speaker-1 (40:12)
I mean, still pro-

speaker-0 (40:13)
Probably

harder than you expected. Like, why can't I not maintain this? why can't I not do this? You think it's your actual physical health? It's just a shock that that fell to the waist.

speaker-1 (40:20)
Yeah.

I

think like, yeah, what I was gonna say is like maybe a skill set. Like I didn't know if you're asking skill set, but I think like selling was the hardest for me.

speaker-0 (40:30)
Because you to school for you can go for school business and go school physical therapy. No one tells you have to actually sell your product or service.

speaker-1 (40:37)
And like a lot of times they'll make it sound seem like it's grimy. And I just felt like I didn't want to be like that. But then then when you realize like, you're actually helping people and you're helping them transition, it's more about education than it is selling.

speaker-0 (40:50)
I'm not a used car salesman. Right. I'm actually helping.

speaker-1 (40:53)
But I think you're 100 % right. I think the hardest, one of the hardest things was delegating and then taking care of myself.

speaker-0 (41:01)
It's funny, we live in the health and fitness kind of world as owners and yet even sometimes our own health can be what falls to the wayside. Yeah. So it can be shocking. People look at it and sometimes go, how can you guys let that happen? We're so busy running a business. Sometimes we forget.

speaker-1 (41:15)
It's a

newer business, yeah, it's a newer business and I think like, you know, I'm literally just, you know, again, going back to like, I need this to work. So I'm like willing to just sacrifice literally everything to try to get this to work so that I can like pay the bills, live the life that I want to, you know, like I'm 31, I'm 31 years old, I haven't gotten married because like of a whole financial.

you know, thing and me being busy with the business and different stuff. And then also, you know, like we haven't had kids for similar reason because like, you know, like Maria's a PT and she has a lot of debt and then I had more debt, like double hers. So, you know, like putting it all together, like you just don't make enough to basically make it work. Like you don't feel comfortable doing that. So was like, I have to make more to.

to do this.

speaker-0 (42:04)
Right. It's like I always need more to the next step in my life. Mm hmm. Like I talked about with you before. It's like, don't worry, though. You'll always be telling yourself you need more money when it comes to kids. It's like I don't make enough money for children. Yeah, you'll be fine. Yeah. So does it feel lonely, Sometimes you mentioned like, you know, making all those decisions, doing all those things like I know you have Maria and there's other people now in your life, but like, you know, there's sometimes got to tough decisions. And like you're like, I am the only one here. Yeah. Like.

speaker-1 (42:13)
I know.

speaker-0 (42:33)
Talk to me about that.

speaker-1 (42:34)
I mean, I think, and when we were talking about that, like I kind of told you and I'll tell you now too, like you have been part of the reason why my business has moved along. You were the reason that I got started, like and went full time, because there was a time where I was part time and I was like, should I do this? And you were like, do it, man. So then like I did it. And then, you know, now like we had a meeting and like, should I hire? And you're like.

You didn't tell me do it, like, you you, kind of like talk me through it. And so like, you've been a good mentor to me in that. And, you know, people in my business group that I've been a part of my networking group, like there, and then also like my physical therapy group that I'm a part of, you know, so like, you just have to find your close people that are willing to, you know, help you. And I think like people that you trust.

like matters and like that's why it works out for us, you know, because like, like I trust you, I know your business does really well and you're doing multiple, you know, like you have all this experience doing multiple different things and I'm able to ask you and you're gonna tell me like realistic answer instead of like what I want to hear, you know?

speaker-0 (43:39)
Is there been anything, because there's always hindsight, there's always 2020 and all that saying, right? Looking back now, it's been a fun year and a half since you finally just, as I said, you just got off the pot and you went full bore into just owning your own business. Is there anything in there where you wish you would have bought speed or known something? Because in Brotherhood, we talk about buying speed, moving things faster from one spot to the next, whether it's getting more clients or doing this or that. What do you think you wish you would have known?

speaker-1 (44:08)
Hmm. I think it's not so for me I get very bogged down with stuff like I'm very 80 D so I'm like jumping between all this stuff and I so I think like I'm a part of some of these groups right and I think like you know so I technically I'm buying speed with some of these programs what ends up happening is like I don't actually get the like the close accountability with it

So like even though I'm a part of this group, like I don't really like know my coach that well, you know, and like, and you know, maybe it's hard for me to get on a call with this guy, you know? And so there's a lot of times where in this other program, you know, it's...

speaker-0 (44:50)
Are you allowed to go no holds barred? Do you feel like it's a place you can actually go no holds barred? Like basically it just means like there's no restrictions. no, you don't have to hold back. Right. Is that? That's what I'm saying. No.

speaker-1 (44:59)
So, like, you know, whereas like with you and stuff, I feel like I'm able to talk to you and kind of, you're, you're able to give me the speed quickly because like, there is no hold back. Whereas like these other groups, like I think like I'm, doing all these things where I'm getting the knowledge, which should give me speed, but in reality I'm not completing the task because there's no accountability. You know what I mean? So I'm like,

I'm lacking the accountability piece. I've got a lot of knowledge from different things and like, you know, I have the resources, like I told you, I'm in this group and that group and whatever. Like, so I can pull from that, but like being stretched out in different directions, I don't actually have the accountability to say like, Jake, do this now.

speaker-0 (45:41)
You

know a great point cuz like how many other business how many male business owners like or even business owners in general Do you think like are not self-motivated or self-driven? Some point they are yeah, right, but you may have a great point like right Yeah, but like we have to do these things right because like they won't like it's not like an end of day I clock out it for example. You don't clock out at five o'clock and those tasks just disappear, right? They're still there and then you're like I have to do those first thing in morning and then something else just slams in your time like

speaker-1 (45:52)
circumstances.

speaker-0 (46:09)
Darn it, so I those tasks done. And so for you, you're like, where's the accountability to make sure that everything gets done that needs to get done? Because like, truthfully, I don't want to make that phone call or whatever it is. You're I'm going put it off. Yeah. Right? like, no one's there to say, did that get done? Yeah. I totally understand.

speaker-1 (46:28)
Cause

that's exactly where I'm at. Like I know I need to like do certain things. Like call this doctor, do this, do that, you know? And it's like, that's exactly what happens is like, just, need a gentle reminder from someone like you, you know, at some point to be like, Hey, you got to do that. To get the lever moving.

speaker-0 (46:45)
So like accountability I think is missing out of a huge portion of everyone's life. Because as business owners, most of them go by themselves, right? Very few people have partners. Partners are supposed to be accountability to each other. But what do you hope people would say like, let me pause about you, like Jake, that dude and his business, like this is what he knows. He's got this down. What do you think is a big compliment people would say about you as a business owner? He's really good at this.

speaker-1 (47:06)
Mm.

speaker-0 (47:10)
or you would hope maybe in the future they would hope this about you. you hope, you are still infant stage when it comes to owning a business. A year and a half, a year and a half year old is a baby, right, technically. So, what would you hope people say about you?

speaker-1 (47:23)
I guess what I've noticed recently is that people will say I have good systems, which is interesting because I am kind of ADD all over the place. But I feel like I've skipped some steps sometimes where, you know, maybe there's some baseline foundational stuff I should do from a business perspective that I need reminders for. But like all the other stuff that I really like to do is like creating systems and funnels and different stuff like automation. So like

in terms of following up with people. Like I do that.

speaker-0 (47:53)
Who taught you the importance of systems?

speaker-1 (47:55)
Hmm

speaker-0 (47:57)
Is it like some other physical therapist? Because a lot of people, like especially in business, when they first start out, they do things. A business owner will do something. And very, very rarely will they systemize it right away. The fact that you've already systemized it is pretty spectacular because like you're the one who does it. You do it, you do it, you do it. So why does it have to be systemized? I'm the one doing it. But the moment you systemize it, you're like, well, anyone can do this now. It doesn't have to be just me.

speaker-1 (48:20)
Yeah,

I think it's from a pure perspective of like, so I did get this from like a business physical therapist group, you know, essentially, but it was like, if I systemize this thing, if I use AI, I use automations, if I, you know, have all these systems in place, then I can continue to do the work by myself without hiring.

speaker-0 (48:41)
It

makes life so much easier, doesn't it?

speaker-1 (48:43)
Yeah,

I can do more basically. So then I can like treat people, but then like the business is still running in the back end.

speaker-0 (48:49)
You ever heard the phrase there's there's freedom and discipline? No, sounds weird, And discipline that you created this type of discipline now it actually creates a freedom because you're not like, yeah, there's not that in brain that fire like, is this done? Is it done? We have that system in place to creates that right level of freedom because the discipline you put in place for it, right? Yeah. If you stepped away tomorrow, though, what would you want people to say? What would you want to still exist from your business?

speaker-1 (48:52)
Freedom in this?

Makes sense.

I mean, I still want it to be like care focused, like, you know, at the end of the day, the business is about giving the best patient experience. it's.

speaker-0 (49:33)
Every time they watch it they felt like an EAP.

speaker-1 (49:35)
Yeah,

sure. Like that that's exactly how I want to feel like I want everybody to be like greeted with a handshake or a hug or a smile. And, you know, like honestly care about people's milestones like you're not another number, you know, whether it's, you know, you know, little little things of appreciation, giving people gift cards, giving them hugs, giving them, you know.

high fives, bumps, whatever it is, like getting somebody to feel and also notice, because a lot of people don't like really, in physical therapy, like you could be like, so how you doing? And they're like, like, I don't know, like I'm doing okay, like I feel a little better, you know? And then like once you start asking them like a specific question, like what percentage do you feel better? They're like.

Well yeah, guess I feel like 80 % better. know, it's like when you can like have somebody put a number on it, they actually will like see how they're feeling. But yeah, what I want to be known for is the quality. The quality, the care, the follow ups, the, you know, that's why all the systems are important to me. Like making sure that the patient or the client is happy throughout that entire process.

speaker-0 (50:52)
Almost like experience the experience that they got with yeah flex forward. Yeah, like stands alone. Yeah, that's yeah. Yeah

speaker-1 (51:01)
I mean, cause like, you know, there's all these other chains out there and I, know, maybe you get it too. You get the emails. It's like, I am willing to buy your business. You know, like we are looking for physical therapists that want to sell their business. You know? And so I've thought about it. It's like, you know, like what is, you know, what is different about this? Like, what do I want to be different? And that's it. Like I want just everybody to enjoy.

speaker-0 (51:13)
I'm like, no, I want to.

speaker-1 (51:28)
their time there and not feel like it's a waste.

speaker-0 (51:32)
And

no matter who you hire on staff wise, that experience will be like three that'll be front and center. Yeah. That's what we deliver.

speaker-1 (51:39)
That's the... That's awesome. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

speaker-0 (51:44)
Dr. Jake, was a pleasure.